Courtesy Flush

I crave silence in my mind. I crave to be liberated from the mental violence of religious conformation.

During my "deconversion" years i reached a place i call spiritual satisfaction, in my studies of Zen and Tao, and being that i craved a god thing, i adopted Hindu philosophy. I was happy , eclectic, and increasing in understanding and the fruits the Christians crave.

But as i am i have no niche, no label. I am neither Atheist nor Religionist. There are my personal flaws and i seek to master them. At best i would call myself a mystic and a sage. A sage with nothing to teach and no one to help.

I have been told, upon my reconversion, when i asked how it was that i attained peace during my out time, yet now in trying to be a christian i am experiencing mental turmoil; that Satan doesn't care what you do with the "Lie" but he will attack you now that you have the "truth" again.

I find that ... really fucked up reasoning. What that by virtue of thinking within Jesus this and Jesus that, that act of cultivating spiritual growth is to be attacked?

Suppose i do not believe in the theological Jesus, thus am damned, yet i credit his name for the answers to my prayers and for all the good things in my life, making me in obedience to the Bible and having "victory" over my sin, and answers to all my prayers would i fall under the verse where Jesus teaches that "he who is not against him is for him? He who is not taring down builds up" ?

If i have spiritual victory over my sin based on my own application of the teachings and say thank the Lord for it, would i be more effective a "christian" than the christian who has no victory, but constantly waits on Jesus and thanking him in advance for requests that don't come to pass, yet he believes in the theology?

I come to discover that the average person seems to believe in two gods. There is the God they learn about in church and thru theology, and there is that god they have a personal relationship with.
They believe in god because they have some kind of subjective experience of it via prayer, and spiritual growth. That personal relationship can be discussed among each other in agreement. Just like the Fundy man and i could talk about knowing god, and be in agreement.

The other god is the one of theology. When a human seeks to put a form to the god in their imagination, and to try and discover its revelation and to determine where that human lives in a theological sense. And in any place where the theological god is in disagreement with the personal god , the christian is taught that the personal idea must be abandoned or labeled demonic.


From my other posts one might determine i believe the theological god is man's creation.

IN fact if i was Satan, and i wanted to make sure humanity would never discover truth, i would create religions. I would keep a human from ever questioning whether or not what they have is true, or from objectively testing their understandings.

I am overwhelmed and desensitized form the arguments both christian and atheist. And seek the repose of my former and natural faiths. I am pleased by my ability to let go of the mental war, and simply breath the air, and observe the living moment.

Back to my two gods theory, lets say a Christian does not normally carry about their minds all the theological arguments in their daily life. He does not pray ...

"lord who is three in one, almighty creator in six days, forgive me for yelling at my children and help me be a better parent, as i know that you are working out my sanctification, to align me with my spiritual position of justification based on the eternal sacrifice of your son.......... amen"

They do not tend to justify each thought with theological debates nor experience god thru them. They simply experience the subjective reality and only bring out the theology when challenged.

It seems that unless one is carrying about the theology, they are relying on the same natural faith that i do, calling it spiritual growth and an appeal to theology is after the fact.

In my faith it does not seem correct to use the bible to defend our base human emotions. Greed, anger and ignorance. IF one verse tells me to love my enemies, i do not see it as correct to argue for an instance where righteous indignation could be applied. I cannot find it within myself to use hatred in one instance and call hatred disobedience in another instance.

My faith is to remove the least good form my moral character and to increase the noble. Such as Paul teaches..... whatsoever things are good, lovely, virutous, if there be any praise, think on those things. I find that if the christian would put half as much practice into applying the good of their faith instead of rationalising their desire to keep their evil human inclinations justified, the world would be better off.

Even as a christian this bothered me ever so greatly, i have a natural inclination to seek the good things, and cannot self justify applying hatred or even the justification of "well i am a saved sinner, i am human ect" being human is no excuse.

I have seen lately in various posts, smug Christians asking , who has deconverted for intellectual reasons.... they are under the impression that many leave the faith because we have sour grapes because god didn't fix everything for us. Talk about a straw man.

My Straw man, taught me one thing yet acted in a different way. My straw man was internally inconsistent, my straw man went up in smoke. And there was no man of rock to be found.

After much fair and balance inquiry i find that in the end all i have is my personal experience.

The god i find to be the most realistic is located within me. And the best theology i have ever found is in the baghadvadgita. and the best psychological/spiritual science i have found are in Zen sutras.

I find that it doesn't matter to me whether i am evolved or created or any mixture of the twain.

And i find there are matters in reality that i will never get my limited intelligence around.

Theology is a science for those far removed form the faith of the common man. Atheist theology also doesn't effect the experience of faith to the common man.

I find the bickering nothing but straw men. And entertainment more than an act of finding reality.

Here's what i know.

Human kind had existed in recorded history for over 8000 years, and humans have set into motion the means to practically exterminate themselves in a matter of 200 years, all in the name of convenience. We have only in the last 100 years begun to redefine our once common moral ideals such as family, higher powers, community, self reliance, freedom. We have long since left off development of natural science in favor of technological science, and i think that is a detriment to our human development.

I know that i am only a person with opinions and i lack education to defend them, as do most of us.


I know that Quantum Physics is fascinating and i would wager than their aren't many Christians in that field because the pure study of numbers would show that many of our spiritual thoughts are naught but equations that can be proved and disproved.


I find that in History and archeology the bible is but a pagan religion with not much physical support, as even is my baghadgadgita. I find that what would be true religion is a matter of discovering Wisdom and overcoming Human Evils with or without gods.



*flush*


*ahhhh the quiet*



*praise god*



IZM

Bewildered

Ok.......


How do i go about this post?

Ya know that Wonderfull "true christian " man i was going on about before, he cut off our friendship last saturday. Apparently i dont appreciate him, because we butt heads on cirtian issues ,such as useing my rational mind to understand events and find the root causes of events and sin within myself, rather than to deny the act of rationalization and rely on empty faith to solve my sins. And also my having a desire to keep hold on the many things i learned philosphically in my non christian days.


Backing up. Last wednesday i invited him over after church, we where going to talk about the service and the near holy ghost revival that the Pastor missed. ( meaning he and I and a few others where really whooping it up in praise of god and the spiritaul jucices where flowing but the Pastor was more interested in getting to the lesson) And i had wanted this old man to help me disearn a particular websight, for scirptural correctness.

During the conversation he was going over Prophecy, and i , in the interest of getting my Atheist arguements finially put to bed, asked about some studies i have read that say the story of Jesus fullfilling the prophecies may have been structured ad hoc.

He went into a brain stunned stupor. Next thing i know he was going on about having fatherly feelings for me and that he wanted to comfort me. He got touchy feely. I had an emotional reaction.

a little background on the reaction, i really never had a steady daddy in my life, my mother was not one for holding me and frankly when it comes to Men i honestly can't tell the difference between true caring and manipulation. I precieved that he wanted a little comfort for himself after the mannor that he shared with his adult retarded daughter, to hold innocently , to be still and in charge of expression..... But i completely was unable to handle the situation.

When i look back on it i see it thusly, i have father issues and he has children issues ( as his normal children grew up rejected christ and himself) He of course denys having any unresolved psychology. And calls my seeing it as "rationalisation"

The next things that happened where a change in the room's atmosphere, from happy and god minded to dark and spiritaully oppressive. I tried to get him to wake up form the depressed stupor and pray with me. As far as i was concerned that there was a Spiritaul attack and i wanted to return to the happy praise and leave the mindset that exposed my ( or our) psychological issues. He was not doing any talking therefore we where not going to be able to solve the riddle of why the feeling in the room changed so dramatically. He would not admit his own feelings or confirm mine, or even pray in what could have been interpreted as a spiritaul attack according to his veiw.

I finnially said there was no solving the issuses for us that night, we should separate and pray. And by the by he left.

(this was a skeloton explaination of course, of the events that evening, another detail i can add is i haven't felt that "rock in the pit of my stomach" feeling since i was a kid breaking up with a boyfriend whom i didnt want to hurt)

That man and i agree when dissussing spiritaulality, our personal experiences of God, even our individaul insights into the scripture. But we fall apart when i use my brain, or ask tough questions, or cannot respond emotionally.

For alittle more background when i engaged what he calls rationalisation, he seemed to take it as a challenge to wether or not i cared for him in a child to father way, if my words of affection even mattered. As if people who loved each other where supposed to agree on every single spiritaul count.

After he went home that night he called back saying his mind suddenly cleared on his way home and he was then able to see that what happened was an attack, and he wanted to come the next day and pray and lay hands on me. I was amiable but in my spirit i knew that it was not just ME that caused the situation. It takes two to tango, ya know, and if he was NOT affected then why could he NOT join me in prayer when I realised what was happening? (How many supoosed demon opressed people are fullly aware that whats going on and ask for prayer support)

(yes i realise many of my non readers dont even believe it was spiritaul but i dont want to keep typing spiritaul/psychological all thru the post)

The next day i let him, i tried really hard not to laugh. My wiccan days where screaming at me about how he didnt even bless the oil, and did not accept that demons have real names. Aparently christians think demons have titles like "rebellion", "greed", "Averice" instead of names and heirarchys.

He was full on convinced that the bad juju was gone now, as a result of his annointing me with oil and prayer. IN my inward parts i was reeling with the proceedure mistakes and merely felt that what ever psychological issue we have was temporarilly made dorment, but i did not press the issue.


Then came saturday, i had two days to debrief myself over the events on wednessday, to ferret out what mistakes allowed the atsmosphere between us change. i concluded it was both of us, our issues butted against eachother. He wanted the comfort he missed with is now dead daughter, and i didnt want my space compromised. I also concluded that the episode begain with the question about prophecy, which to me means, he shut down rather than think about challenging his 70 years of devotion. A trained responce to any form of independant thought, followed by the deversion of "let me hold you", which threw everything in to an emotional crisis.

I tried to explain tenderly those conclusions because he kept proding me to. IN fact i actaully had not made any firm conclusion or desided on any course of action, i developed a theory and sought to test that against his experiences that night. To think it through like a rational person. But he was incapible.

He immediatly started in on the you dont care about me, i should go, i have done all i could to help you, and when we rationalise we get ourselvs into trouble.........


He was offended that i thought he had any kind of issue, and that i wanted to help him, that i prayed for him to truly have peace and let go of his resentments toward his children. He claimed he was merely telling me his OLD PAINS in the spirit of counseling ME and letting me know he to was human. Rather than how i saw it, unrelated stories that he still cryed over and relived every time ( and they where many times) he repeated the tales of woe.

SO he cut it off and skipped town.

What i am bewildered about is what does his reactions say about the god who TOLD HIM that i was to be a new family to him that would NOT reject him? Or about the commissions he felt from GOD saying that he was to have a hand in helping my husband back to Christ service? Or even the impression he felt form GOD about giveing us some money so that my family could go and visit my natural father whom i had not had a christmas with in over 20 years? Or that he felt it form GOD that we where worthy to be the execitors of his will upon his death?

DID HE MAKE A LIAR OUT OF GOD?

i begain to determine how that much of what we claim form god is the result of our surface emotions, and that being the case shouldn't we TEST stuff?...er... rationalise?

*sigh*


Well after this, and the pain i been going through, i resurfaced over at Debunking Christianity for more reading and thinking.

personally my idea of God never told me any of those things, my impression was god brought me someone who understood the spiritaulity of god like i did and that was way groovy. it made me think i could have my god and the bible too. And that i cared for him much like a daughter and ought to be a comfort to this man. The only impression i got form what i would call GOD.... said to me "i have given you a short friendship" He said that about 2 weeks after i met the fundy man.

oh and that little voice also said, when i asked it why the fundy and i bump heads, "your not going to trust or like my answer but, it is becasue he is religious" and then impressed upon me the two parables of "not putting new wine into old wine skins" and " the parable of the telents, ie reaping where god has not sown"

and thats all god had to say about that,

and i think this is all i have to say about it also.



On another note, i should like to email a particular person over at debunking christianity, but am afraid i already screwed up thinking i was at all able to piss with the big boys. But i would like to ask how the former chrisitans deal with a question/observation that has lead me to "reconvert" a few times.....

That being, doesn't the world seem to be growing worse and worse, the dishonesty, the violence, the lack of honner amoung people, the increase in diseases, the decrease in supplies? I read a study that within 50 years we may well be out of FISH. Global warming? Itsn't it supportive of the bible's teachings on the End Times?

And this i have also "reconverted" over thinking about why it is that people are extreemly anti-CHRIST, not anti muhammad, not anti buddha, not anti sun yon moon, but put so much energy into being anti Christ. And how that other religions won't let jesus be who jesus said he was, but try to adopt and redefine him according to their beliefes? Why bother with some 2000 year old dead dude? That would seem to support the bibles teachings also.

And please dont answer that a broken clock is correct twice a day.

but in light of all the other textaul critisisums, and logical debates, and experience baised debates, my silly little question seems extraordinarilly silly. Since a christ positive answer would lead to the rationalisation that all the other arguments are jsut the mental mechanics of .........could it be......might it be


SATAAAAAAAANNNNNNNN?


Rather than actaul history, research, years of college, ect ect.

I find myself extreemly unsettled about there being NO known occurence of "the slaughter of the innocents" makeing Matthew a liar. NO exodus and wandering of the Jews in any other history, (unless you count the expultion of the huksos with no wandering) Anyway.

I should like to make a study on the natural deaths of many of the old religions, the onese who died with out a christian sword. Perhaps the greek religion with the rise of Aristotle. Or the Norse religion, but i am not sure how that one died. So i can make a study of the history-ness of the dieing of the Christian faith in this day and age. Yet would it die? There are still small pockets of Zoroastarians, and how did their mainstream faith die off? But i do not know where to begin with the research.

I am also unsettled by the fact that i can't find consitant resources that agree on the dateing of the books of the new testament or the development of the conon. The Christians say one thing , and the Atheists ( who seem to manage consistancy) say another.

But that might be becasue my only access to research is Google. A few years ago (maybe 20 i guess) our town libary actaully had a BOOK BURNING!.........

well i guess thats all for now, no answers here.

Justine


(ps the spell check on the blogger is not working for me ,for some reason, please dont think me an idiot for the reason of bad spelling. Rather if you must, Think me an idiot becasue i haven't flushed my spiritaul toilet yet.)

recently

Do we become too intellectaul, and forget the simplicity of Christ?


Recently, after having found theses 'new revelationary' teachings, i found myself eating up anything i could digest, as fast as it could be served to me.


Isnt that greedy...... oh i see, we all prefere to call it, hunger for the Lord.....see the LORD gets all the attention ...ahem erm, amen....... Really? Jesus is pleased to see us gobble up meats, just to be eating? I mean , at least your seeking after truth, right?


Recently i have found myself over whelmed with information, and realised i had forgotten what all my studying is FOR. I forgot it is all about knowing god, not just about him, not just the record of his sayings. But to know HIM. I realised that the reason why people are so easilly decieved about things of the lord, is because we read so many books, and listen to so much information, and memorize rigid and calculated thought patterns with which to experience this god-thing, in just the right mannnor. Rather then to look into the Bible.


Isnt this Idolatry....oh i see, we all prefer to call it dilligence and disearnment, to rightly divide the scripture.....yadda yadda yadda....

*Sigh*


Wouldn't Jesus wish for more than that? Dont i want to experience his own voice speaking His Word, while i walk, while i pray, while i wash dishes, while i sing, while i wrestle with the kids, while i relax.......


HOW can this be done!


HOW do we life with and for the Lord, and not need to keep our hunger/greed satisfied?


Humm doesnt this sound like a parable?...


A woman at some well.



IN the olden zen days, a master would speak a very obscure verse.....such as......."When you are hungry, eat. When you are not hungry, dont eat." And the proper student would go an ponder that one verse. And not return to the master untill he is satisfied with the answer...and better still he realizes that answer and thanks the master for his lesson.


We have the MASTER, and he has given us MANY verses to ponder, He is eager to tell us many answers, But like with the zen master you must need zen, you must also need truth, as you need the very air itself. Because HE IS the air you breath.

And he gives us many teachers, but test all things, test all your thoughts and voices and add knowledge to a living understanding without intellectaul obsession.....not attachment to strict form and answers but leaning on the voice of truth, Jesus Our Saviour.


Test Him, he will not change his truth. When you have learned the Mind of Christ, and have put to the cross acres of mental lands you ought to be able to look into any scripture and see truth brightly. Truth becomes your way of living......you truth , you love, you pray. The Buddha would have called it "you pick up a blade of grass and make a scripture."


Now for fun of the thread, "the faithfull" must figure out the bible verses i have alluded to during the text ( esp the hidden ones); And the readers can give the lessons and questions they have of the Lord and his teaching to them.



please forgive, if you want me to i will just shut up when i get in a preachy mood. Its all a part of ........ IZM

what about this?

i absolutly know this frustration.

When one goes off to seek truth and then finds many many interpretations of the same truth. It can drive a person nuts. literally. i have been almost to suicide over "Lord which truth is yours"

He hasnt told me everything YET, but happilly he preserved my life while i wait on him. Along the way learned that for every knowledge and truth you discover you will also find rebuttal. Each person pursuedes himself according to his knowledge. We know the source of true truth is God, so we keep trusting him. We also know that no man has "got it" so we take Pauls words that each person must be fully pursueded in their hearts. We know that the Holy SPirit also teaches us inso far as we are able to recieve, so we MUST remain flexable to concider his revelations in light of truth already learned.

The GOD that is all TRUTH must have a truth and an interpretation that is wholly correct, yet he also speaks to each of theses individauls in their way of understanding. But then what do we do with people who seem very opposed to what seems plain to ourselves?....


The Atheist asks us the same quesiton, to them it seems painfully obvious that the old testament god was .....shall we say less that savory. You cant get them beyond their outrage. And you cant get past a persons smug religion either, for them it is obvious what ever they belive. My oppinon on the matter is that since the mind of Christ is so large, he is able to impart different veiws of truth to each of his people. These people might have individaul theology that serves to guide their living and belief but anything they learn in life that is of truth, or causes them to see more clearly the WAY of the Lord(if not the lord), has only one source.


Jesus has a call on YOUR life, to teach YOU what he has for you. And we would all like to see the world do it just like we have learned but that is a fruitless prayer. It is best not to worry about them but also important that we dont worry over ourselves with so many interpretations out there. At some point you have to call yourself settled, because the TRUTH is that there is NO END of arguement and difference.

You will never find a perfect teacher who stands unopposed. You will never even have a complete revelation for yourself....and Lord have mercy if you do because then YOU would be the one the world lines up to oppose.


the biggest lesson i have learned is to WAIT.



Become famillier with the Holy Spirit within you. Trust, he lets you know the truth for you. And should you come along a few years form now and find a deeper well of truth to dive into, then Dive. Before you found this place you where dove in, and now you swim here. Bottom line is Christ is going to conform your mind to His own, and he does this by working with in you, not by theology alone.

Theology is a way to have witness.... The Father, The Word, and the Holy Spirit, and also the spirit (you) the water (flow of truth) and the Blood (Christ's mercy) We offtian dont live our lives any better by conforming our minds to ciritan thoughts and teachigns and having the right form of theology. Instead we live our lives by conforming to the working of the Holy SPirit.We are not intellectaully saved. [/i]




........
From: If I could Ask God Just One question.


so many excellent questions......


let me quothe form the gospel according to the Band Rush.....



"Well, you can stake that claim Good work is the key to good fortune. Winners take that praiseLosers seldom take that blame. If they don't take that game. And sometimes the winner takes nothing.

We draw our own designsBut fortune has to make that frame. We go out in the world and take our chances. Fate is just the weight of circumstances. That's the way that lady luck dances. Roll the bones

Why are we here?Because we're here. Roll the bones

Why does it happen?Because it happens. Roll the bones.

Faith is cold as ice. Why are little ones born only to suffer? For the want of immunity Or a bowl of rice? Well, who would hold a price,On the heads of the innocent children? If there's some immortal powerTo control the dice?


We come into the world and take our chances. Fate is just the weight of circumstances. That's the way that lady luck dances. Roll the bones.

Jack -- relax.Get busy with the facts. No zodiacs or almanacs, No maniacs in polyester slacks. Just the facts. Gonna kick some gluteus max.


It's a parallax -- you dig?


You move around,The small gets big. It's a rig. It's action -- reaction Random interaction. So who's afraid..... Of a little abstraction?

Can't get no satisfaction. From the facts? You better run, homeboy A fact's a fact From Nome to Rome, boy.


What's the deal? Spin the wheel. If the dice are hot -- take a shot.


Play your cards. Show us what you got. What you're holding. If the cards are cold,Don't go folding.Lady Luck is golden; She favours the bold. That's cold ! Stop throwing stones. The night has a thousand saxophones. So get out there and rock, And roll the bones.

Get busy!


Roll the bones Why are we here? Because we're here. Roll the bones

Why does it happen? Because it happens. Roll the bones........





god is the recipetical of all Knowledge, we are the receptrical of infinite questions, he must fill us to the complete so that we may comune and be His creation after His image...


knowing and well seasoned in the knowledge of good and evil, like he is. that takes drama, that takes pain, that takes defeating all our sin under the power of his Blood....



and by His very Name, Jesus Christ our redeemer.


there is a lesson to be learned in every aspect of your life, that will compele you....( us all in his perfect time) into the Image of His righteousness. Whats the point of it all?!............. that we may know the Lord and he may know us and fill up all in all.



that The Lord can have what he's always wanted......A people that walk with him in all their ways, of undivided mind, which is carnality......self-reflection reather than god reflection.........in my oppinon.




IZM





MY REBUTTAL

“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” (Stephen F. Roberts)



well met, mister stephen, my rebuttal.....

I contend that we are both , His creation. I merely also believe he is personal, and you belive he is impersonal, tantamount to non-existant . When you understand that it does not matter what we think, you will find that we are still in this state of being that we call life. I prefere it to be God's creation, and myself His child. You prefere to raise yourself. I am sure you can see why i disreguard what you think.

Circa 2000 CE, the deconversion years.

WHAT I GOT AGAINST CHRISTIANITY. (from the zen master's joke book)




I am not sure how to start this essay. There will be a lot of information i need to get off my chest. And i am sure that this first draft will be in insane zen mistress style, of free association writing. But i will start with a small background about what happened and why i am not a christian. (( post script, how fickle the intelligent mind, any good argument can toss it about))

I accepted Christ when i was 13. I had already had a "church" relationship with Jesus, as a small child starting form about 8 years old. But at 13 someone answered all my questions and offered me Jesus as Lord of my life. They where fundamental Christians. I immediately ate up the scripture and began having fantasies of teaching large groups of people. It was not long before i could start seeing bible verses and warnings in everything i saw. I studied deeper.... I thought myself an apologist.... and spend lots of time studying prophecy and argumentation of other religions, and the human condition.

I had a typical pattern. I was what i call "on fire, for the lord", for about two weeks at a pop. Then in that cycle, i would start asking deeper questions, ethical in nature, then biblical , then historical, and then is tarted looking for evidences of god in the world. Followed by studying other religions out of curiosity. These things "god in the world" "proof" i rarely saw my faith would die, or go to sleep for long times. Then came regret, the seeking, and the total re dedication of my life to Christ again. It was a constant cycle lasting for about 13 years. Deep study of ideas, philosophies, thinking processes, and my own study of life and what i thought was right and wrong.

But i still thought myself a "christian" at the soul level. During that time i have been a Zen Buddhist, a new ager, a witch, a shaman, a Wiccan , a Baptist, a Presbyterian, a Pentecostal, and a catholic.

Each religion leaving me stuck with the very same cycle. I should have known then that it was not god leading me back to himself but myself leading me in circles. or i could have considered it the fault of the cycle itself, and question whether it was there as a fail-safe of sorts for discovering truth.

And that is what i did. That is what i had been doing. Trying to find the that one thing that causes all religions to expose their lies. Call that "testing god" if you will. But i was seeking Him. ONLY HIM!

I wanted to be right with god. And to do so i would have to find and obey his truth.

So began my actual zen process. To make a short story long, i needed to ask god WHY!



I followed every strain of logic. And discovered that most of them are forgone conclusions. You only see what you want to see. Like the dead people in a recently popular movie starting a balding typecast action hero. Then i began wondering why we are afraid of truth. So many people got so many good and true ideas. But no one questions things. They look for a plausible idea and make sweeping life changes to conform to the plausible idea. This is religion. This is how your Satan works. Other people call it personal demons, the Chief one is selfishness.

Solomon said it right; there is no new thing under the sun. And he sure was not talking about technology. See we make our destiny. We each have our written legacies to study.

And all they are is the results of another mans circular reasoning. The evidence of this is in the very arguments about the different religions. If it Can be argued then it CANT BE truth.


That is why the old zen masters would not talk, or tell you what they really knew. But what about me, i am the insane zen mistress?

I have taken "telling it like it is " to another level. i am not afraid to tell the truth, because i know That it is according to my own circular reasoning.

i am just like you are, and actually telling you the complete truth, but i leave you to make the argumentation. This is also an explanation for the verse. "Carnal man cannot understand the things of the Spirit."



(waits a few moments while you digest that because it was a mind blower)



Anyway



That was infinity. Eternity. Time is irrelevant. If you where following my thought process you would have been confused maybe speechless. If you are reading my book just to argue me then you will be in stress trying to battle my every point or making sweeping remarks like "she is full of shit" "or Satan" "she is wrong" "she makes no sense" AND "she is absolutely right i adore her"


Fact is i am not right. if i knew the enlightenment or salvation that you consider true, then i am still a slave to religion, and hell.

That is the meaning of

"My peace i leave with you"

"The peace i give you , i give not like the world gives. But it is peace that passes understanding."


Chew on that a min,



Time's up.

old postings as a christian

( i joined this site about half a year into my un-de-conversion, while i was studying Ray Smith's site. At the first , all this new universalisum realisation hit the right spot in me, and according to the people in the bible truths forum. and it was all a fresh of breath air in light of my experiences in my assemblies of god dieing church. so i was Excited in Jesus again. But quickly began to see the non-thinking blah blah babble, cult leader worship shit that turns me off. and turned out to be very dissappointed there. but i had high hopes at first.)




I am very happy to see the minds at work that i see here. All my life i was a "strange kind of christian"..."and a strange kind of buddhist" "and a strange kind of hindu" and again a STRANGE kind of christian"..........i'd sit there and wonder why no one else seemed deeply moved by truths, or contemplative, or to vocie out their reasoning with others, besides god. I admit it is very frustrainting to have yourself opened to deep truths and cant even find the words to express them, and know that not everyone can receive at this time.

I would ask deep theological questions and never really know it was "out of my leauge", but i know that it is my mission on earth to seek truth , to seek god and his meaning. I am unimpressed by theology, and philosophy alone can't share your meaning with others. I believe scripture but the paper alone will never yeild the fullness of truth. It is Proper understanding of what is God's holy imutible word....is it a thing you can print and hope to understand by your knowledge? I think not...the Word of the lord is living and breaths and contains all things for all of us.

I am excited that other people here think and are not reaching for ready made understanding to conform to. It is good to confess and reason and pray with and to god, but it is best when we can all thinky freely and reason together and grow with god together. I Have to say reading Ray's teaching taught me that, yes i can use these scripture to(and as i do) understand god, and learn to accept the greatness that he has shown himself to be in my life and in the lives of others....And of course shown himself in the Bible......and also the few who are his right now............(groans)

Why is it a few....why JUST A FEW..........Truth is marvolous and wonderfull.... to be reconciled to god and have the chance to know him thru the word and thru prayer............but.........how come we CANT ALL see it .or explain it.or .........do anything but show it and believe it.... It makes it feel like dry dark land out here, and i look about myself in church and wonder.............few lord? only few?....why not these who pray and seem to desire you? and oh my gawd how vain and evil of me to even say why me and not them too?

I may also still be lost, for it is the lord alone who gives righteousness. And if i am lost and the many are lost then it is still few and i pray the lord brings one of the few around my place that we (in my church) might learn and know the lord also while there is mercy. Why am i practically a heritic, now that i can understand scripture and that it never was ment for a theology..but an instruction into the knowledge of the living GOD to us... .. about how he is providing that way to LIVE for all of us. ( each of us) ( you individaully as he will and works in you).............God's loudest wish in the bible is "To have a people and to be their GOD"
the hardest part is believing it could be happening to you.
the hardest part is accepting it once you believe it is.
the hardest part still is to tell of your understanding to others.

Thank you for accepting me. Sometimes i ramble, sometimes i flounder, i hope i am allowed to share here, and hear what you all share and maybe throw some of my sence into the mix.



...... ( the follwing a responce to another person's prayer request, she was struggleing with her dissapoitnment with the "false church"...it is like theses people are living in a half deconverted state.....a rebound state. it would not be right for me to post her mind here.)



I know your pain.

I also live in this world.

Your questions are normal, and toward the right path. The point is you can only LIVE what god has you to believe..........the more you resist living the truth according to your understanding of the truth and the more you worry about pleasing men,than to obey god and know him being your goal .........then you will have more guilt and fear and pain and be open to falling into more error and complanceny. (being chastend and conformed to the image ( and understanding of god).

You must chose to obey god, believe the scripture and live peacibly amoung men. after all, that is what your heart yearns to do ...... your letting your fear control you instead of the truth. and you are hiding behind the words of mens knowledge, verses the way of god's knowledge.And then these things will fall into place.... all these things will be worked out in gods timing, all you have to do is continue seeking and praying and working out your salvation with Jesus.

Paul tells us, we are to let god be true and every man a liar....relax........if god was not working in you already, you could never have reached this place of questioning. Trust Him for the answer and the opperation of your life, for he is faithfull and soverien anyway. Even if they are still trapped in their thinking, you seek not to be, your walk with god is what you need to grow in, and let god grow in thier walk with god, in His timeing. YOU LIVE for god.........wash dishes, love children, enjoy prayer and study, learn to enjoy the simple acts of living and when asked have your answer.........be thankfull your a woman.....(lol- we are told to have gentle and quiet meek spirits)May the Father reach deeper, and grant you understanding and instruction, and be encouraged to relax.........to wait on the lord...........to meditate slowly on these deep truths before forceing them down someone elses throat in your excitment.........in order that we will be better able to give a good word in season, perhaps god would give them repentence.thank you for listening, and may bless your Growth Justine.



(the following a responce to a christian who has just had a realisation into the adam and eve story....again i might at another time include his realisation but since i have no commenting readers there is no arguemnt to get the both sides of.....this is just me bablling so you know what kind of chrisitan i am.)


WOOHOO chuck!!! This is a revelation isn't it? you can say......Adam and Eve where created wise..........created with and unashamed of their testimony and understanding of god.............they in their own craftyness walked with god and god walked with them............unashamed unafraid of being wrong, no one to judge them as evil...ACCEPTED by the Lord as they where.

BUT THEN...........WHAT IF.............And the serpent said are you really right? Here, taste......check yourself out and compare..... Why have us "sin" why have us be out into bondange, and to become ashamed of the knowledge of god?...........In order that we might be trained in righteousness..........but i am getting ahead of myself...............(panting happy happy joy joy)

SO then what did God do? Gave them coverings.....gave them covenant, gave them a means to rightly divide .............brought about their salvation. Here, the origen of "one way religions" ( you must where armenni suits) Here, the origen of trusting in the forms of men and being ashamed of our nakedness, rather than to seek god in our nakedness.

Men think this passage..........this unscientific bad evolutional theory passage.... has to do with Adam and Eve froliking in the tulpis with thier dingle dangles hanging in the dirt............NOOOOOOO

It speaks of pureness in the mind and then awareness and self conscious killing the oneness with god. OUR sin.............. Men think when god gave them covering, he was teaching them sacrifice..........and in one way or two he was....but in another way he was giveing them a guide and saying this is the example, ware these clothing....(his covenant) Forgive me i thik i am stumbling all over the place....i maybe should have waited before responding LMAO...i rushed in NAKED.....and flashed you all !!!!!!- Justine.


(the following .well i forget what set me off that day.....)

some people ask, "should we go to church now" some people ask, "whats the point no one can know if they are saved or not", and some other people really go off the deep end and say well theres nothing we can do, its all god fault anyway, and drive themselves into mental paste with the details.....

I prefere the direct approach.OK. so today between my ramblings we are going to discuss a few verses. I did not know which discussion bored was meant for that, and am too shy to break rules, cause this pondering i am about to undertake might seem blasphomouse to ray(pun intended). But i am here to just think and my verse and interpretation wont be anti ray......(evil grins i am the anti christ, honestly)...........OUR verse for the day

"Some, to be sure are preaching Christ even form envy and strife, but some also from good will. The latter do it out of love....
"Knowing that I (also we ) are appointed for the defence of the Gospel:The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, rather than form pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.
" What then! Only this.....
"That in every way, wether pretence or truth, CHRIST is proclaimed: and in this truth, (CHRIST) that i rejoice, Yes i will rejoice.

For i know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provisions of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, according to my earnest expectation (hum i enjoy those words) and hope, that i shall not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ shall , even now, ......as always....., be exalted in MY body, wether by life or by death."

Wow he said alot. in such short lines......if there are indeed so many few of these chosen and many not yet chosen, or the goers to hell if you so believe. Face it no matter what one believes, Christ Jesus is who/what Christ is, so lets not get stuck on the particulars and get to the finding of this CHRIST MIND.........

The Christ of Paul, that Christ who did POOF at him in the way to Damascus.............i mean you know theology whooptee do.

This Christ thing has got to be better that just knowing what is, what is not and it really MUST have something more to do with a thing YOU can chose, when and how and after the Lord reveals all the stuff to you. The kind of Mind of Christ that Paul had.....well it must have been more spectacular that to have all your thoughts in subjection to him and never leaning onto your own understanding........(wink wink) (er...somewhere in Corinthians)...

..it must be something that is able to transend everything ...(god is a being ness)

People need to hear truth and see truth in action, and learn by faith and example , that's why Jesus is "Grooming" a few now, and i tell ya our behaviour has to be right instep with his will and that's more than knowing which bible to study.

It is a way to life, and when you are brought along to live it with surrender and obedience rather than thick study and worry , then the Living in the mind of Christ differs all your values and all your understanding, turning it over to the mind of Christ.

Once you leave Babylon you cant return. How can the mind of Christ become deceived again? Basically it wont matter what church your in when Christ converts you, and dont you think it would be nice if those poor lost souls could at least see ONE example of "thing" they are wishing for......

Not all Christians IN Babylon are wolves and shouldn't we be making disciples of all men......

If it makes you mad to hear the falseness..... Suck it up, your brother is hungry.

Even Christ went to church for the few.. how many of you where lost and alone because there wasn't even any kind of person who seemed to have the life the bible promises. We all where lost and struggling and many haven't let themselves seek as far as you have. i think it is better to learn to let go of my outrage and make friends of the very few.

Beside wether you are in church, a place you can more easily talk about the bible or on the street proclaiming your message, or one on one interactions form the grocery store to hanging out with friends, your life ought to be reflecting the Christ that's instructing you and that you are a child of his by correction and surrender which leads to perfectness.

Your "theology" is gonna slip out ,and so will the god given wisdom to know when to let it out. In the world, out of the world, what ever when god's in control you speak truth. And we are all short of the total glory of that.......you know why Jesus needs a BIG BODY....he is everything, he is all perspective, he is truth no matter what.


whew a big god indeed is taking his time instructing us.


and i think he can do it even if we "go to church" or "go to the world" or "still cling to our theology" because is he is beyond all that.. all i got to do is learn to obey him and walk with him.


In that mind, the Scriptures become word to you, they are your witness and your confirmation. But you can lose this bliss too with unbelief, that's somewhere in Hebrews. Paul st rived .... Peter st rived, i know i have st rived.......

how about you...

and yes it is our will God is testing.........

.what he is asking for.........


puke up that fruit of the tree of knowledge. ..........*ACK*...........Good boy now go make disciples.


Justine


((this last of a few, the typical atheist might enjoy......friggen snot ass basterds)))

hey i read that sight. Shortly after my 'reconversion' It threw me for a loop.

i spent weeks megga peeved at god for being what the author saw him as........but then when people would try useing such arguments on me i always felt like .........but that is not god as I KNOW him.

if you want to make a comment, expect her tribulation. They are obsessed with argument by outrage.

One such person asked me once if god willed a little 10 year old to get raped. I could only tell her no he gave us rules of behaviour so that we WOULD not rape but we chose to go agianst that............but she kept at me and in the end all i could say was

YES GOD DID!........GOD WILLED IT,.... god also suffered it with her and will ADVENTAULLY heal both her and her perprotrator........... But that arguement did not fare very well. I went away confused and she kept her anger to Jehova.

I suggest not useing the natural man cannot understand spiritaul things arguement... lol


Justine

Responce on the internet.

(been thinking of gathering up all my forum posts and dumping them here......kinda tempting to sit back and peruse my extreme brilliance....and/or sweat when the perfect reader will tare me an new intellectual ass hole. Living on the edge. In a weird schizo-effective kinda way. BTW i am really inspired by this old Fundy guy i have been visiting with and i maybe in the verge of going biblical up in here. i am laboring under the delusion that i could be the apostle to the atheist, .....(gawd that is nuts) ....


anyway, i am thinking... i am craving what that man has.........personally when i am in the light of the bible, there seems to be power and excitement and joy beyond logic. Dont worry, with the atheist i dont intend to thump, but those christians are gonna get two barrels full i guarantee it. lucky for ye godless...the house of god gets the whip of god first.......*evil grins*


anyway here is the "argument/reply"

Jason, (and select points of others)I enjoyed your thought about How that you can feel as if the "real" True god was so, she would happier with the atheists. and i would throw in, According to the bible.......god's first commandment is that we should have NO images of him at all, so you are not in sin, by holding no image.

Yes there are so many ways to view god from the bible, and those that severely contradict some of the other ways that have become "back bone" of history and theology.

What if they are simply tieing together the wrong notions? The oompa pa powerful ones because of our human desire to have it all and just the way we want it?
Small minds take grand truths and turn it into bullshit, your argument is you can't polish a turd.I agree. but aren't shits good things to have?but what of the grand truth, in the first place? I am not saying the obviously illogical, that i have to force my ideal god into including the very obvious evil acts he is reported to have done.

But i sure dont believe that the world would be ANY different even if the ideal god existed. I believe the real true god is so, therefore the world is as it is.


To Ralph, you said..."most people want an idealised god, then why have the gods that i have been made familiar with seem to not be THAT ideal? "

God wont share his glory with an idol, maybe he wants to give it to you. ANY image, view, forced set of reasoning's, constricting theology and totalitarian religion cannot introduce you the the real and ideal god. The real god acts, immediately, the real man receives,experiences, questions and filters(rationalises) and settles on a world view that totally makes sense of what that god thing meant.

Already that lesson he speaks or the interpretation he gives will be flawed. The god thing is here and now, and as man grows he will refine the understanding of that god thing until man and god can find common ground. You have not found any that suit you because you are looking to attain some dead man's limited interpretation.And to the other notion discussed, about how can this person judge the world view of that person and why would there necessarily need to be a "Different" kind of world IF that real god existed?

A person's true world view is biased on their mind and their experience in life. Weather it includes any god or is purely realist, no one can actually judge someone elses world view. This is why we will never convince each other that ours is in fact correct. It is correct unto ourselves and some other like minds.Like minds gather and seek more understanding of and testing of what ever world view they have.

Sometimes people with a world view gather into little groups and talk about it, and sometimes people get together and force others to "get it right" Any little group that would control the larger group by their just right ways, has already violated any real true god's agenda.Lets pretend this god did not exist, i would see the world that i see and experience things and relate them to my personal mythology. I see that nature is dastardly and immoral.Yet upon closer inspection is is very intricate and meaningful.

Maybe it is natural that man is like that too. Perhaps god. And therefore we need to keep refining our understanding on god to include science and mystical and natural. in order to find what could be truth and understanding.

If you dont mind, i can see the god who is not, anyplace and it is not necessary to proof to me weather the Crucifixion actually happened or not. According to my interpretation of the events in my life and understanding, i have patterned a pretty meaningful life out of pretending those lessons had real god's seal of approval.I have used or transposed something of confirm able truths in observing and using the spiritual picture of the Story.

Other people do this, it is natural, you watched a movie or you have heard a random line of truth in your life and applied it to your worldview, and grew in this or that direction. Must i in light of your rational, give up my illusion, if it worked for me as do your pearls of great price?Justine
8:24 AM, November 07, 2007
"

Imponderations, i met a true christian

I met a true christian......ahhh how rare a sight.

I know the atheists would tell you the argument ......."since they are so confused with doctrine, how can there be a true christian? " I would answer them.............christianity has become such a preverse false religion theses days that all the TRUE christians left that faith, and decided to seek god for themselves. Some are wiccan Some are Buddhsit some are Insane, but in the path of seeking god.......the true christians know, nothing can contain Him, he is not a thing we can touch or handle.

Buddha asked once if the Brahman had bodies? If they did not then how could they relate to us? Did Brahman ever hunger, or does he exist in our realm....ect........the point being that God is unlike us in all ways.............HOW can any of our VEIWS and interpretations be anything but FALSE?

Wheres my logic?...... God being defined as infinate as well as Omni, could not be contained in any veiw or religion. It that would be god SHOULD be a living flowing constant thing. And since anything that is not in this living moment where god is existing, cannot rightly define its essence.

I mean that people, any of us who has an expcerience of a veiw or an faith or a rational, cannot have attained the perfect truth.

Because knowledge and faith that is strapped to name and form.or chapter and verse, or digest and annaul......cannot be a living thing. Yes the bible is dead and all your veiws are quite valid.

.....but still...... i have met a true christian and ADORE this old fundy man......

(brb)


ok...
Do i cringe when he thumps his Holy King James Verison..sure...sure. I would like to be a smart ass and tell him all about the imperfections of the latin vulgate and the times of King James, but what would my point be. It's the other words he says that show his faith. He fancys himself non denominational, bibleist....but when he talks about his father...........his heavely father, and the lessons he has learned in life and the wisdom of this father........i know that he knows , It that would be god.

I say it is a rare site, Any place in the world, to find a person who believing in wisdom and instruction and truth, seem to tap into that something that would seem to be of that which would be god. I may have only met 8 in my life. And they are not famous people, or important or dogmatic, or in leadership. I once thought that Osho guy was someone to look at but, to me his physical living did not seem to reflect someone free and enlightened.

I suppose that my take on the matter can be wittled down to perhaps, what i call a god knowing or a connection with truth, is subjective unto myself, and when i precieve that quality in others i am merely seeing a reflection or a simualr personality trait or, at the worse, reading to much in to the other person. Meaning i have cherry picked what ever things i thunk where good and my spiritual life took me to places i would find that thing i think is true, and when i rarely meet up with such a person that has thunk up the same thinks i thunk i am merely finding, by laws of percentages, a personality match. And therefore not a fact of god, or a proof of religuous truth, still it might be nice for us personality matches to make a chruch.

Secondly i do not care to proof any particular religion. That this man is a "true christian" he does not constrain my spirit to conform his understanding.

Firstly concerning the fact of god. SO you have me agreeing with you that i just met a personality type, that agrees with my veiw. How can i know that he or myself have found god?

I will try to think about that later.

This man i met, in simple psychological like terms, happens to share in his personal experience that same things i have , our thought lives and development of our understanding and application of the god thing in our lives is simular. We share the same truths, even if our dogmas and oppinons or even hard line questioning have gone after different methods.

Not unlike any of you who have gone thru deconversion and have come out on the other end a specific way. I would never tell you that you where never a christian, and i cannot say that any of you are not even still christians, at least in the sence i am meaning.

Some of you have great potential to be true christians.
So what do i think a true christian is?


i believe our books are myths. yet i notice the occurence of the story. God comes to man, teaches man how to know god, man begins self improovment............but man being stupid has to deal with his pride, anger, ignorance, control, lust, ect. ect ect.

I belive that all our religions are god speaking to different people and these people tried to share their message the message became a religion, and small minds took it over.

i belive that truth is true no matter who says it, and i also belive that god is truth no matter where you find him. And if you could not find truth in christianity, i would tell you then go and quest for what you would know to be truth.

I suggest to you that once you found sure truth, it would be of such a character that it will have been everywhere even before you began to seek it. Once you find this truth you can look at the bible and maybe understand.

It is not the order of the words, it is the inspiration of the eyes that read it. The person with the eyes that read the words, recieves the inspiration that he guides his life by. Are the words themselves the agent that inspires?

It couldnt be the words. Wisdom spoken in sanskrit might be true but i would never understand them. I would gather that if it was of truth i should at least feel the expression of the speaker's tones but i would not be able to be instructed directly by his words.


This fact of truth not being bound by(in) words and forms themselves, can be demonstrated in the many spiritaul relationships have occured throughout time where the master's and students did not know each others language, or where trained under a vow of silence.

Supoose these monks where allowed to talk after many years. Surely there would be some to connect and can discuss the sames truths learned, and there will also be other monks who have only leanred to miss talking.

It is in the person seeking, what the god thing responds to. So you the atheist may not have the need for a sky daddy, more power too ya, the illusion can be a bit confuseing.

it is not suited to everybody, god is bigger than you holding an image of him. IN fact it could be argueed that god's first comandment was not to have any image at all, therefore you are not in sin.


but all this talk is nothing compared to when people of like minds meet each other.

There is power in that. there is energy and brain wave technology and all that jazz.

I suppose if i was exactly like any of you, when i lost my faith and when i became anti evangelical, i would have had great simular experiecnes upon meeting a true human thinker.

I still do. It doesnt matter to me if the thinker i meet is free or a slave :P

well i take that back, i hate the smell of sheep. And prefere people who either know them the lord or have moved beyond that and have gone into knowing them the truth, and life.

I am sure i can make arguements with the bible about the god thing i am talking about. the one that the normal christians claim is their god of whom they are indignant and proud. (they missed the verses about god hating pride and casting down vainities)

But a true christian..........and a true human regardless of plastic outter coating of religion, is working on their insides, is humble and seeking first the kingdom of god before going out their way and forceing anything on anyone.

No i dont for one minit belive its religion or lack thereof that would condem a human. Nor is it specifically wether they know the religious jesus. or the hindu krishna, or nothing at all. But they should know the truth, not in fact but in spirit. SPirit will throw the average logical thinker......Lets retranslate it into the gosple according to atheist.....

Do you honestly belive that your average fundmental is on their knees praying to god? Do you think the average one ever struggles like you did? It is my understanding that, that which would be god would HAVE to strip you down of everything you cling to that is false or falsely understood.........to include your dogma before you can see things as they are, before veiws.


But i still cant point out to you what that true christian is, likely you havent ever met one. It would be that person you remember to be wise, and could always help deepen your understanding. AH,...

You might say, well that was professor so and so and he destroyed my faith in christianity...GOOD i say............What was his take on truth? For him what was important in life.

Was it first and formost to thine own self be true?


My Atheist mother had done more to help me find what could be a real god than has any of my dogmatic friends.

But understand, i dont mean to even convert you to my understanding. i will not say thus saith the lord, because he that would be IT, does not need me to do his dirty work. With me a conversation in spirit and truth is one where there is confirmation, thought, realisation and imponderance.


need to break, proof read what i wrote so far and remember what my other thoughts where that i wanted to mention ...... brb...


Hum, i havent covered "So how can i know wether this man or myself have Discovered god? I have to think out loud a bit on that one.



How do you know what "feeling" they are talking about when you read the articles on the god helmet? Where nurology is doing experiements with zapping the frontal lobes and giving people religious experiences?

what experience are these people discribing? Obviously you know it is some other part of your awareness. You have experienced it. I cant discribe that, i think the Buddhists call it samhadi, the christian would call it the holy spirit decending, the Hindu calls it darshan.

people who can attain this on their own who find there is no seperate personality, how ever they imagine what is happening inside this zapping they are experienceing, will also find that it speaks truth.

it gives realization.

it can be a demon too. it can be the very bad place where suicide people decend to, that over bearing hate filled condemnation feeling before they actaully try the suicide.

same place
same energy
different imagination

how does that answer you about how can i know this man and i have found god?


When i lost my faith i went into witchcraft. I started having the exact same spiritaul experiences when i focused on the goddess........my "faith" never changed.

I still purcude truth justice and the self mastry thing.

My goddess(es) taught me many things, uniteing nature and tao and the power of words.
Did not seem right to have a god without a goddess........but my basic actions where the same.
still had conscious, morals, love for things holy and true, compassion humanity. And fairness.

I needed a man god too in my paganism, but i thought the wiccan gods where blah........to me man-god means Wisdom and strong. With knowledge and Judgement.

Christians Jehova god is one sutied for men and millitary types, and wiccans Pan god is a sexaul submissive suited to angry oppressed wemon who need R-E-S-P-E-C-T...not for me

I needed Krishna, from the badhadva gita..........i craved Cungfusious, and Buddha. I needed to under stand the human nature, my sin, my mind and learn how to take up my cross and die dailly and grow in the knowledge of christ.

There was still alittle bit of that old tyme religion when i said that sinners prayer.


i settled on Shiva and Shatki.


i Do enjoy jhana yoga. But dont ask me if i ever studdied it or have creditntals.

i am the most undisciplined person i know.

well next to DJ.....but ...........*shudders* what was i trying to talk about?

Point is i have no way of instructing you how i know they got god, except that you know when you know. when it happens. And the good atheist challenges this .....that was special moments, finds it was just a natural happening.....just a brain spark, ........he may chose that but i chose in the momemnt of the happening.............recognize god.


know Him as unknown, and natural, of course he used narutal science, of course there is an explaination.

but.... that time, that moment that brain zapp, that kiss.........when they where real vibrant powerfull things, where god moments. As humans we seem to know what is good what is best what is perfect what we have and what we settle for.

but there are sometimes moments of clairity, pristine insight, perfect orchestrations of physical events, that i call god moments.

That could not be prooven, it can only be experienced as true. And i am no fool, those very same impressions in the minds of schizophrenics and idiots causes much grief. WE KNOW, that the things desired in religion IS that "perfect" Flow of relaity. and we KNOW most everything we see is chaos.

because we forget to not stop there. not get stuck in the what should be moment, the bitching and prooving moments, the distracting moments.....the only reason that god moments are not more regular is because people are always looking ....the alusive god moment lurks in shadows and waits for you to gase into your baby's eyes for the first time the child recognises you. or expresses love back.


those are living and true moments they cant be regulated. or prooven, they ARE ALL subjective reality. that each man has an oppurtunity to experience. IT...not matter when or how it appears, does not crave you to join a dogma, does not care for a thing, unless we know it is bad for US, it ..........our moral code, our take on the governing of our reality.... this is where the true what ever's are living.

well i suppsoe i sound like i worship human brain functionings.

i think as long as there is an element of doubt then what knowledg is not yet attained is in the realm of god. But we need to be cirtian we have exhausted all our resources, and not settled in this faith or that faithless because we ran out of options.


well i think i have bablled myself dry.

Pretty lonely blog

Of course i dont advertise. Maybe i am just not all that dedicated to a blog, but since it's the in thing........shoot i dont even know who to blog at. Or For.


SO i guess i does not matter what i talk about. No one is ever gonna see this place.

Thought, the voice of reason belabors this point, i still wanna type. I got lot sof things to talk about, but no one to say them to.


Husband thinks, the market cant crash ( in america)....we are too industral, he thinks unless we have nuke war, we will bounce back with in 6 months, because governments might fail but people cannot.

Wife thinks, we are all ready fallen, they jsut havent told us yet....no need to incite any fear...YET. She wants to stock pile food and arms.... but she is too damn poor to start buying them in bulk.

I been studying anti-christian stuff.....been observing free mind from fettered mind.


Been thinking of bloging a "conversation" with Lanel playing God(ess), and me asking Her to discribe herself and explain why she is so hard to see/know.

But i am not sure how much time i have before my husband pulls in for the week end.


Besides, its not like i have any readers hanging onto my every word......


"There is only us."

Yeah but theres not enough time.

"There never is."

What are you talkign about, as long as their is consciousness, there is always NOW.

"A split second of eternal time.... thats all I need."

Later.

I hope it is not too late a date for reply

I hope it is not too late a date for reply but my eyes where opened to a realization i had been thinking of. How, to an outsider their very god is the devil. In olden days, all the gods where happy to live together, sharing temples, even stories, all a part of the Supreme Being. Christians can't have that, neither can their god, neither can the Muslims and their god. Christians are to be confrontational or at least be a good martyr, And their god is the same way. With his son-self being a martyr for himself. As i mused over Matthew's statements .. IF i may wax existential... But isn't God just like Satan? The one who stood out and said "I shall ascend to the Most High?" 

The one who wasn't content being one of the many beautiful gods, yet not as glorious as the Supreme Being. Naturally, Lucifer's followers would likely want to be the identity of a faithful and true believer. The "World" wants it's liberation, their Satan wants subjugation. If you want an Authoritative source for my thinking, watch history happen. Places in the world that are untouched by Satan have rich histories, and developed natural sciences.

 Have medicinal secrets we would kill for today.of course, not all people are like this, as confrontational as they are allowed to be. I wasn't, but then nine times out of ten the god i tried to sell might have been the "false one", since if i fell away i was not actually saved, so hey i been right all along. Yes Mathew continue the work against Satan himself!

 But don't kill me if i love Jesus sometimes, after all he did not ask to be born, but Satan said he had to, Paul needed an Christ to be the Antichrist of....IZM

a mildly visious rant

Hello. well i had a groovy experience today....i desided not to go to church because i was in a confused atheistisc mindset.....i was recovering my internal peace today and didn't want to cause trouble in the church.....

but something happened... plot found me.


the pastor called to haraunge me about church attentence and wanted to share his sermon with me in attempt to pursuade me to "be in the right place at the right time" and that place of course was in his meetings.

his message was perfectly reasonable,and no argument from me about his biblical logic and intent except this.....


for me.....my morning experience had been in prayer, and just moments before he called i was praying for him.......my pray was a question to god about how come my pastor poo poos when i have a holy ghost revelation?


why he likes to hear about impressions and visions and spiritual agreement sometimes but stops me form speaking my specific impressions?


and whamo! the pastor called.


(forgive my psychosis i would like to say that is amen-able in my book)


how is it that his call and his massage happened to him this day?
for me the experience was nice i took it as a personal howdy do and confiding in me the pangs of our dwindling numbers.

i asked to interject and witnessed about how his calling to talk to me is an answer to a prayer and that he called me and i was home is the being in the right place and time for us.


he was impervious to reason.

i spoke clear, hopefully........i was in agreement by my perception not one thing he said was untrue for me..only difference was i was living the promise and he is wanting to watch the promise happening in his church.

he is very neigh mental breakdown by my interpretation.


his sermon did actually come out and say the trouble with the church is the people in it........he did pour out his blood today.

it broke my heart


it broke my mind


how do i interpret this........he is within his religion meme and seems to be heading toward insanity.

because he is too disappointed to question himself

that's my take on it anyway....at least that is a stage in the process i have personally been thru and know the pain of.

and otherwise.....if my experience today was merely my subjective reality..........here is what i gathered.......there where less than 30 people today. i gave the pastor a little humor of well at least the people i been praying for are here.

lol
anyway


i felt like the people where apathetic today...i felt like their discouragement was evident.......it was mine i guess. perhaps today my desire to cling died...........well i don't want to be deluded into thinking everyone feels like i do.


but today it seemed to be dripping from the pews and pulpit.


that's the trouble with mental illness........you can't even be sure your feeling the true impression, unless you ask, and you hope what you ask is not nuts..and it totally floors you when the other humans says i KNOW EXACTLY how you feel and you can dump it on them..........and then suddenly they freeze like you just pulled out your tit if you say ..yes that JUST like James told me.........

whose James...oh um.......my imaginary friend....ummm............weren't we just now agreeing to the content of our thoughts a second ago.
....

yeah but you credit your understanding to James and he is not real...

oh....i don't let that bother me.

anyway


(i told the pastor that my heart bleeds for him and if he'd forgive the harshness, i have lost my religion and i have found my faith....and what the church needs is evidence the living Christ within them and we have to admit that something in Christ message got lost over 2000 years. and though it can be found in the bible.. . its right in there...........the holy spirit in you teaching you.)

sure i used his illusion....the boy ain't ready for mine.


i pray for wisdom

i hope i am obedient

i pray mostly that his delicate and hurting mind have a smooth and faithful transition.



i did not like the idea of him having to go thru this pain... it is like dieing.

dieing hurts

something died in me today.


before when i lost my faith in religion........i took the view of it is just another religion and i can find truth relative to other truths in it.


it is not the interpretation of the bible you chose to obey for yourself.......i don't speak about that.



i speak of........the thing that died in me and is not like the first thing that died in me.


the first thing was boo hoo my bible is flawed and not the word of god.

but i kept getting reconverted.


(interpretation...delusion...desparation because well there is no other answer that does not involve my own painful dieing)

i could expound on that with many images but that takes me away from what i am having a hard time getting to.

this second thing that died makes me seem to see the emptiness of the words with non deludable starkness.


and i am thinking wheres the ones who are finding their god to be similar to my god, and using the christian frame work to understand him by??????? where are they


they where not in church today by my interpretation.

though i did get a little ranting on with Chris..
anyway again.... i think i have lost my point within all the above.


i have no point
even my grand personal christ complex is not my point.


its like i don't care.........and it is also like who am i to have personal happiness ( if i do have it at all ) or spiritual wisdom masked in any form you wanna speak it if.....general humanity does not speak form the personal heart anyway,



that's one rant......the other is HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW

i am tired of why


i answered all my whys........


now i need to know how.


how do i reach my pastor? how do i live their christian Jesus life and help them realise they can also with out the trappings of brainwashing?


well perhaps my jesus thing is my illusion.i don't want them to have my illusion, i want them to have the god they wanted.



but it is hard to describe and hard to teach and hard hard hard.



it is


it is


and painful


so do ya wanna get started?